Wednesday, January 19, 2005

The Kakatiyas and Kammas Myth

I saw a photograph of a group of people in an Enginerring college conduct a caste party. Yes it is 'Caste' party for the people of same caste to get together. I was surprised to see a banner which reads 'Kakateeyula Vaarasulam ... Manam Chowdarulam' meaning 'We are the decendents of Kakatiyas, we are the Chowdaries.

I then decided to dig into this and I found this website :

Mostly Culture and heritage in Andhra Pradesh


It was interesting and it broke the Myth with some proof. I liked the way it put things. In Kapus he mentioned about Kapus being the decendants of Aryas, now that the theory of Aryas being in question, I wonder what is supposed to be taken as a good idea of the roots of a caste. But one thing is for sure that all the castes are a mix of many groups, so I wonder if it would bring any sense to all those who are into too much of caste politics.

To quote from the site above :

The kammas are not kakatiyas.. Now several kammas cherish a view that kakatiyas were kammas. Nothing of the sort. But actually the kammas were quite prominent during the later part of the dynasty. The kakatiyas proper themselves were descended from bonded slave labourers (as the 1000-pillar Hanmakonda inscription of a later king Kakatiya Ganapati proudly states), but they gradually rose to found a kingdom as the Kalyani Chalukya empire started breaking up. In this endeavour, the Kakatiyas were assisted by the Velamas and Reddis. In the early kakatiya times there is no trace of any kamma. During Kakatiya Ganapati's times, there was disorder and confusion in rajasthan gujarat. An accomplished soldier migrated from Dhar to Warangal and took up employment under the Kakatiyas. He soon became the commander in chief. His name was Gangeya Sahini. He is called the founder of the kayastha vamsa, and there seems to be some link to the marathi CKP community (Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus) (e.g. Bal Thakre).

15 Comments:

Blogger someone said...

Y do u waste ur time unnecessarily in digging into this type of issues?
R u so interested in caste?

5/15/2005 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Midhun Kumar Allu said...

Well yes, I am very much interested in this concept of caste which looks like talking about it is a taboo, but every one seems to embrace it. Well just that you know, I dont care a damn about 'someone' posting on my blog. If you need some replies be brave to use your name and dont act like a pussy.

5/15/2005 07:04:00 PM  
Blogger Sunburn said...

Yes you are right all the castes
are a mix atleast it can be confirmed for Reddys and Kammas.
The Reddys are infact they are an Extension of the Kapu Caste.
(no offence and no intention of offending any caste or hurt their feelings and pride)I would put it as the evolution of the caste system.

Most of the posts which show the castes being associated with the Kakatiya and Vijaynagar kingdoms.. are primarily listed as Reddy or Velamas being the contributors to the Kakatiya Dynasity... and some claim the kakatiyas are from the Kamma communty.

When you say Reddys you would have to implicitly mean Kapu also there was noway at that point in history there was a line which divided the Kapu/Reddy community as it is now.

Most people are not aware of this association except some well informed people about history.

When you say Reddy in those it was primarily a title given to Community Heads...you are very much aware of this fact which is well known... and a Significant infact major population of the Reddys was an offshoot/were infact from the Kapu Caste.

This is how the Govt of India classifies the castes Kapu and Reddy
274. Reddi Dora/Reddy Dora. 275. Reddika. 276. Reddi Christians. 277. Reddy/Akutota Reddy. 278. Reddy/Bhoomanchi Reddi. 279. Reddy/Desai Reddy. 280. Reddy/Desur Reddi. 281. Reddy/Dommari Kapu. 282. Reddy/Ganjam Reddy. 283. Reddy/Godugulanati Kapu. 284. Reddy/Gone Reddi. 285. Reddy/Gudati Reddi. 286. Reddy/Illela Reddy. 287. Reddy/Kodithi Kapu. 288. Reddy/Kuruva Kapu. 289. Reddy/Motati Reddy. 290. Reddy/Musugu Kapu. 291. Reddy/Nadal Reddy. 292. Reddy/Nadi Taram Reddy. 293. Reddy/Nanikonda Reddi. 294. Reddy/Nallelema/Nallevelama Kapu. 295. Reddy/Neravati Reddi. 296. Reddy/Pakanati Kapu/Pakanati Reddi. 297. Reddy/Paala Kapu. 298. Reddy/Palle Kapu/Palle Reddy. 299. Reddy/Panta Kapu/Panta Reddy. 300. Reddy/Pedakanti Kapu/Pedakanti Reddy. 301. Reddy/Pokanati Kapu/Pokanati Reddy. 302. Reddy/Renati Reddi. 303. Reddy/Sajjana Kapu/Sajjana Reddy. 304. Reddy/Sugamanchi Reddy. 305. Reddy/Varanasi Reddy. 306. Reddy/Velama Kapu. 307. Reddy/Velanati Reddi. 308. Reddy/Yerlam Kapu


The proof of this association is well documented because of the Population Census conducted by the British till 1900 used to club the Kapu and Reddy castes together... who refused to accept the Reddys as a separate caste.i think the last time they were clubbed togther was as late as 1927.

This is because the practice of a Kapu adding a title Reddy or being granted a title Reddy was widely prevalent till those times once he has made it big financially or adorned some Post of Power.

Even now a lot of Kapu Family names carry the title Reddy which usually meant Landowing Zamindars

Examples would be the very famous Neelam Sanjeeva Reddy...who was a Kapu but held the title Reddy and ofcouse proof would be his

This Family name is mostly held by the Kapu community
in Godavaris/Krishna/Guntur
/Prakasam Districts.

Yogi Vemana, a kapu by caste called himself Vemana reddy.
So just giving bits and pieces of information to support my arguments.

And this Suffix "neni" is just not associated with the Kamma community
it has a significant amount of Kapu communities who have family Names with neni i can give a bid list.

Anyway here is somehow a new movement by some over enthusiastic
members of Kamma community i wouldnt say everyone of associating
themseleves with some kingdom or the other after failing in the kakatiya front...

Now they have started claiming that
the Reddy Kingdoms were promoted by the Kamma Community and once there was a Kamma Kingdom in and around Amravathi and the Current Vijayawada and Guntur districts...

And now there is another claim which they are trying to lay their hands on now there is a new claim that King Krishna deva Raya of Vijayanagar Fame being a Kamma till now there were two castes in contention one was an argument he a Kapu and another was he was a Yadav...Incomes the new claim...

There are descendents of the Tulva
Dynasty who call them seleves Kapu
and there is proof lots of viallges are named after family names within the Kapu community...
More research needs to be done however to prove this is right

Request is please dont try to change history let it be as it was.
Showing interest and knowing about origins and posting against misrepresentation of facts doesnt mean People are Die hard Caste Fanatics.Hope people undestand this and post after reading this message.

5/29/2005 04:48:00 AM  
Blogger Midhun Kumar Allu said...

Cool comment dude. Unfortunately you havent given any references. Let me dig into this and see if I could confirm this is true. Also you havent given me any e-mail to contact. I have my contact e-mail on the main http://midhun.allubrothers.com in contact-me tab. Do keep in touch.

5/29/2005 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger lavadakaapu said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/17/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Midhun Kumar Allu said...

Some one is totally pissed at what i had written. Poor soul had no guts to reveal his name. If you want a word duel come head on dude, lets see who kicks whose ass ...

6/17/2005 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan Raveen said...

Hello my name is Raveen and I currently contribute to Wikipedia. (user page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RaveenS) There is a lot of caste nonsense written up about a lot of castes including Andhra ones. I have been fixing some of them. Recently I finished and edit of the Velama caste and Reddy, Reddiar, Naik and Naidu titles but we need people like you to contribute to the project to make the caste information of Andhra even better.

3/31/2006 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger WnG said...

Hi Midhun. I came across this post while I was googling on the origins and background of Vemana, and I am glad to have run into this. The comment by Sunburn is in particular very enlightening.

My understanding is that the present clout of Telugu Reddys and Kammas is mostly through weathly wisespread landowners representation and aggressive foreground into politics and other prominent professions.

It is an open fact that with mass migration of the forward caste Brahmins in particular, to the cities in search of education and better propsects, plenty of rural family property was often neglected and finally given away at not so high prices to the tillers (mostly the lower castes). They brought it up on their own and became weathy. Hence the traditionally poor lower castes became richer and in a position to command (politics in AP of present day are a clear indication of this trend).

I have a doubt though. The Kammas and Reddys do not figure in the list of professions in the forward castes (traditionally) and most do not accept that they are the fourth caste. Naturally them being the descendants of Kakatiyas is laughable. Rather, since it is such a delicate matter, no one likes to really talk about it, as "someone" rightly showed the attitude people have. Perhaps Reddys and Kammas can be classified under the Dravidians as most South Indians, but Aryan descendance is more of the North Indian heritage, I suppose... and by extension, a ridiculous top-hat on lower caste South Indian people.

I understand it is a sensitive thing to poke into it, but since you have done it, could you clarify this?

Thanks!

6/04/2007 09:45:00 AM  
Blogger Laks Reddy said...

Looks like WnG has to do a bit more research on the idea of classifying someone as Dravidians or Aryans. I think its hard to classify these two castes into one or another, because you'll see individuals in both castes displaying facial features and traits from both Dravidians and Aryans or either one of them.
Also it is really hard to differentiate between Kammas and Reddys of today. From what i've read at various sources, both seem to belong to one parent caste.

8/27/2007 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger chandu said...

haa i really disagree with sunburn comment.he had simply moulded the topic according to his own way.
Reddis do not constitue a ethnic group,really.There are several starnds which go to make the reddis of today.The earliesrt reference wqe have to anyone resembling the reddis are the raiths and maha raiths before 200bc. These kings ruled over small principalities in the deccan plateau area of maharatra, karnatak and andhra before satavahanas and mauryas.

if you want more history about reddies i can provided you the proofs that where reddies r came and dont pass staements that neelam snajeevaih reddy is not reddy. please go through the history and make a comment about such a great mans.

and up to know there was no pproofs that kammas are vijayangaram prabhus (like srikrishan devaraiah).if you have any proffs please let me know.

5/14/2008 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger Tuskers said...

The Reddys are an Ofshoor of the
Kapu caste... But the Kammas and
velamas are either a branch of the
Kapu caste or are Buddhist settlers..

The Reddys are quite similar to the
Kapus in their build and nature
not so with the Kammas or Velamas...

Another origin theory is about freedom to women on society these
two castes Kammas and Velamas
were more inclined to give freedom to women an hence those who
gave it in wirting were called
Kamma and those who did not were banished and were called Velama
"Veli" expel...

6/12/2008 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger Tuskers said...

Also the Aryan theory is the current population of Kapu Naidu
and Reddy look like a mix of Aryan
and local Dravidians.
And their origin theory of migrating from Ayodhya also supports this..

Iam not sure about Kamma and Velama
they seem to be settlers at a later date mostly Kambhoja orgin...

6/12/2008 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger happy said...

i hope all this 'caste' talk is mostly for interest sake - just to know how ppl hv bn migrating over the centuries (stories are so fascinating) and how various cultures developed. it wud be horrible to use anything as a bone of contention.

its amusing how a name that possibly denotes a "wild dog tamer" (?)(early domestication of animals period (?), later applied to any cattle-tamer, cattle-grazer, then a farmer, then much later perhaps to a land owner) is considred one varna on the west coast and another varna on the east coast :-)

8/21/2008 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger Midhun Kumar Allu said...

Tuskers, I dont subscribe to the aryan theory for it is based on things which have multiple interpretations and one which was the most convenient was chosen at the time

9/25/2008 04:28:00 AM  
Blogger Gopi khande said...

good discussion ..Reddy,kamma kaapu....

3/14/2009 02:05:00 PM  

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